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	<title>Comments on: Protecting the public domain and sharing our cultural heritage</title>
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	<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/</link>
	<description>News from the Wikimedia Foundation and about the Wikimedia movement</description>
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		<title>By: (UK National Portrait Gallery vs. Wikimedia) vs. the Public Domain &#171; sethiscreative.com</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1504</link>
		<dc:creator>(UK National Portrait Gallery vs. Wikimedia) vs. the Public Domain &#171; sethiscreative.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Sep 2009 22:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the high res-images from the Wikimedia Commons and on the other side we have Coetzee (backed by the Wikimedia Foundation, many wikipedians and Creative Commons) claiming that these images belong to the public domain and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the high res-images from the Wikimedia Commons and on the other side we have Coetzee (backed by the Wikimedia Foundation, many wikipedians and Creative Commons) claiming that these images belong to the public domain and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Walsh</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1468</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Walsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1468</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vincenzo, Conservapedia is a completely distinct project from Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation.  Thousands of wikis use the same software and format/style as Wikipedia, which is an opensource project MediaWiki.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vincenzo, Conservapedia is a completely distinct project from Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation.  Thousands of wikis use the same software and format/style as Wikipedia, which is an opensource project MediaWiki.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincenzo Sasso</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1467</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincenzo Sasso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1467</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is digusting that you allow websites such as conservapedia to exist under your banner. 
I&#039;m profoundly disappointed by your organization and will do whatever I can to publicize this scandal!!!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is digusting that you allow websites such as conservapedia to exist under your banner.<br />
I&#8217;m profoundly disappointed by your organization and will do whatever I can to publicize this scandal!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Kerry Webb Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Too big for their own boots?</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1464</link>
		<dc:creator>Kerry Webb Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Too big for their own boots?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 05:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] just become aware of a right kerfuffle between Britain&#8217;s National Portrait Gallery and the Wikipedia Foundation, all because of a smart young thing who hijacked a lot of high-quality images from the NPG site and [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] just become aware of a right kerfuffle between Britain&#8217;s National Portrait Gallery and the Wikipedia Foundation, all because of a smart young thing who hijacked a lot of high-quality images from the NPG site and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: NPG vs public domain @ Geraki&#39;s blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1454</link>
		<dc:creator>NPG vs public domain @ Geraki&#39;s blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1454</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] NPG με οποιονδήποτε και κυρίως με το Wikimedia. Άλλωστε όπως γράφει ο Eric Moeler του Wikimedia  για την NPG, &#8220;αρχικά έστειλε [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] NPG με οποιονδήποτε και κυρίως με το Wikimedia. Άλλωστε όπως γράφει ο Eric Moeler του Wikimedia  για την NPG, &#8220;αρχικά έστειλε [...]</p>
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		<title>By: oceanwatcher</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1453</link>
		<dc:creator>oceanwatcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting debate, and I actually think the gallery has a good case, even if we might not like it.

There are at least a couple of different things worth mentioning here.

1. I think nobody disputes the fact that the paintings are in the public domain with respect to copyright.

2. If the photos hold any copyright or not will be up to UK law to decide. US law has nothing to say in this matter.

What is in front of the lense has no bearing on if a photo has copyright protection or not. I think most people agree that even the most casual partyclicker owns the copyright to her/his images. A tree in the jungle usually do not have any copyright attached to it. Does that mean all pictures of this tree is in the public domain? And argument like that becomes absurd.

My guess is that the photos are copyrighted no matter how little we like it. If you want to play the &quot;creative work&quot; card, most pictures taken in the world would be in the public domain. Little or none creativity goes into most pictures taken. It is merely documentation of the &quot;I was there&quot; kind.

Also, the person downloading and then uploading the images MUST have known he was doing something forbidden by the gallery and he did it despite this fact. So there is definitely an intention behind the action.

Here is what should have been done: Go to the gallery, take your own pictures and post them as public domain.

Alternatively - contact the gallery, get the medium sized images and everyone is happy!

I agree that an institution like this actually gains a lot on making the works they own available. And maybe there should even be a law that said that they has to make it available on the internet if they receive the taxpayers money. But the gallery can not be forced to use Wikimedia as their chosen way of publishing the works. Adding Wikimedia to the list would be a nice service, but Wikimedia should be the ones to contact the gallery to ask for the material.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting debate, and I actually think the gallery has a good case, even if we might not like it.</p>
<p>There are at least a couple of different things worth mentioning here.</p>
<p>1. I think nobody disputes the fact that the paintings are in the public domain with respect to copyright.</p>
<p>2. If the photos hold any copyright or not will be up to UK law to decide. US law has nothing to say in this matter.</p>
<p>What is in front of the lense has no bearing on if a photo has copyright protection or not. I think most people agree that even the most casual partyclicker owns the copyright to her/his images. A tree in the jungle usually do not have any copyright attached to it. Does that mean all pictures of this tree is in the public domain? And argument like that becomes absurd.</p>
<p>My guess is that the photos are copyrighted no matter how little we like it. If you want to play the &#8220;creative work&#8221; card, most pictures taken in the world would be in the public domain. Little or none creativity goes into most pictures taken. It is merely documentation of the &#8220;I was there&#8221; kind.</p>
<p>Also, the person downloading and then uploading the images MUST have known he was doing something forbidden by the gallery and he did it despite this fact. So there is definitely an intention behind the action.</p>
<p>Here is what should have been done: Go to the gallery, take your own pictures and post them as public domain.</p>
<p>Alternatively &#8211; contact the gallery, get the medium sized images and everyone is happy!</p>
<p>I agree that an institution like this actually gains a lot on making the works they own available. And maybe there should even be a law that said that they has to make it available on the internet if they receive the taxpayers money. But the gallery can not be forced to use Wikimedia as their chosen way of publishing the works. Adding Wikimedia to the list would be a nice service, but Wikimedia should be the ones to contact the gallery to ask for the material.</p>
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		<title>By: National Portrait Gallery vs Wikipédia ou la prise en étau et en otage de la Culture ? &#171; Injazz Consulting&#39;s blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1450</link>
		<dc:creator>National Portrait Gallery vs Wikipédia ou la prise en étau et en otage de la Culture ? &#171; Injazz Consulting&#39;s blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Protecting the public domain and sharing our cultural heritage [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Protecting the public domain and sharing our cultural heritage [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ho Shaky</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-3/#comment-1445</link>
		<dc:creator>Ho Shaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:31:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Look, I&#039;ve just skimmed through the above, but it seems to me just about everyone is missing the point. There are 3 really important points to make here.

1. The NPG is not saying that images of the works in its care should not be available through Wikipedia; its saying the cracked zoomify versions shouldn&#039;t be available there, as the commercial use of large-scale images helps support their digitisation programme. The NPG is happy with its 500 pixel images being available on Wikipedia, and that&#039;s really just in line with 99% of all other images available there.

2. Through encouraging clickthroughs from Wikipedia to the NPG site, where the zoomify images are available, Wikipedia has the opportunity to allow its users to discover all the complex interlinking of images, artists, resources, products etc that the NPG has spent a lot of time working on, to increase both the availability and the discoverability of resources.

3. Some people out there seem to live in a bit of a cloud cuckoo land, where all Government-funded institutions have free rein to spend whatever they like on whatever takes their fancy. News Flash. The NPG has all kinds of demands on its resources, like storage, conservation, education, research, etc. etc. The Director does not have a notline to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his desk. They do, however, have a commitment to providing the best possible mix of publically available information and images, alongside the creation of a revenue stream that helps support their activities. How is the flagrant theft of their zoomify images any different from walking into their premises and shoplifting postcards? Both activities are done without the Gallery&#039;s consent. Are they both ok because &#039;its the taxpayer who funds production&#039;?

I reiterate, this argument is not, I repeat not, about the NPG resisting access to images of works in its care. It is about the NPG&#039;s right to restrict access to large scale images, while encouraging access to lower-resolution versions of the same images.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, I&#8217;ve just skimmed through the above, but it seems to me just about everyone is missing the point. There are 3 really important points to make here.</p>
<p>1. The NPG is not saying that images of the works in its care should not be available through Wikipedia; its saying the cracked zoomify versions shouldn&#8217;t be available there, as the commercial use of large-scale images helps support their digitisation programme. The NPG is happy with its 500 pixel images being available on Wikipedia, and that&#8217;s really just in line with 99% of all other images available there.</p>
<p>2. Through encouraging clickthroughs from Wikipedia to the NPG site, where the zoomify images are available, Wikipedia has the opportunity to allow its users to discover all the complex interlinking of images, artists, resources, products etc that the NPG has spent a lot of time working on, to increase both the availability and the discoverability of resources.</p>
<p>3. Some people out there seem to live in a bit of a cloud cuckoo land, where all Government-funded institutions have free rein to spend whatever they like on whatever takes their fancy. News Flash. The NPG has all kinds of demands on its resources, like storage, conservation, education, research, etc. etc. The Director does not have a notline to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his desk. They do, however, have a commitment to providing the best possible mix of publically available information and images, alongside the creation of a revenue stream that helps support their activities. How is the flagrant theft of their zoomify images any different from walking into their premises and shoplifting postcards? Both activities are done without the Gallery&#8217;s consent. Are they both ok because &#8216;its the taxpayer who funds production&#8217;?</p>
<p>I reiterate, this argument is not, I repeat not, about the NPG resisting access to images of works in its care. It is about the NPG&#8217;s right to restrict access to large scale images, while encouraging access to lower-resolution versions of the same images.</p>
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		<title>By: sdoradus</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-2/#comment-1444</link>
		<dc:creator>sdoradus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1444</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Webb&#039;s assertion that removal of watermarks is a criminal offence rather than a civil one is only of concern if the works were subject matter of copyright in the first place. The whole point of the argument is whether they are or not. Worrying about watermarks is distinctly premature. 

The opinion of the silk &quot;that UK copyright law protects photographs of works of art&quot; is beside the point. It only does so if the works of art in question are themselves copyrighted, and in this case they are not. It also makes points which in so far as they are true, are not on point, like the notion that a 2D copy of a 3D work is copyrightable. Here we are dealing with a 2D copy of 2D public domain works. 

Even 2D copies of 3D works is the subject of fierce dispute - see for example a Waikato Law Review article by Anne Kingsbury. In speaking of UK and NZ legislation, she notes that &quot;Sections 73(3) and 62(3) mean that it is also not a copyright infringement to photograph these kinds of works and sell the photographs or make and sell postcards. Printing drawings or photographs on T-shirts and selling these will also not in-
fringe. It is irrelevant that these are commercial uses; they are still permitted under the exceptions.&quot;.

In relation to a similar case in New Zealand (Radford v Hallensteins) the court there threw out a lawsuit by a sculptor against a maker of T-shirts which had an image of the sculpture. NZ and English law were discussed thoroughly (vol. 15, page 83);

   &quot;... the High Court Judge held that s 73 applied and that there was no infringement. The Judge  considered both s 73 and the English provision s 62 and its antecedents, and commentary thereon.  He said that s 73:
   &#039;sets out to allow members of the public, including players in the market, to copy in two-dimensions sculptures permanently in the public domain and even for profit; and it does so by setting aside any copyright in the work that the author might otherwise enjoy&#039;. 
   However s 73 [s 62 in the UK] is interpreted, that clear policy is not for compromise. The sculptor in that case was understandably aggrieved  ...&quot;

   The same academic review (on copyright law and the protection of public art and works on public display) mentioned that under both the UK and NZ legislation, which are very similar, it&#039;s likely that working materials associated with the works (notes, sketches, designs) are also not protected. This raises the possibility that databases associated with the public domain works would likewise not be protected. 


Webb also asserts that the &quot;Bridgeman v. Corel case ... doesn’t apply in the slightest in the UK&quot;. 

The Bridgman case applies at least as much as the silk&#039;s opinion. There are layers of authority, some binding, some not. A UK court could disregard both. It might regard the US decision in &quot;Bridgeman v. Corel&quot; by Judge Kaplan as being of at least persuasive authority, particularly since he specifically discussed UK law. It is, at the least, a case decided in a recognized common-law jurisdiction, which the opinion of James QC is not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Webb&#8217;s assertion that removal of watermarks is a criminal offence rather than a civil one is only of concern if the works were subject matter of copyright in the first place. The whole point of the argument is whether they are or not. Worrying about watermarks is distinctly premature. </p>
<p>The opinion of the silk &#8220;that UK copyright law protects photographs of works of art&#8221; is beside the point. It only does so if the works of art in question are themselves copyrighted, and in this case they are not. It also makes points which in so far as they are true, are not on point, like the notion that a 2D copy of a 3D work is copyrightable. Here we are dealing with a 2D copy of 2D public domain works. </p>
<p>Even 2D copies of 3D works is the subject of fierce dispute &#8211; see for example a Waikato Law Review article by Anne Kingsbury. In speaking of UK and NZ legislation, she notes that &#8220;Sections 73(3) and 62(3) mean that it is also not a copyright infringement to photograph these kinds of works and sell the photographs or make and sell postcards. Printing drawings or photographs on T-shirts and selling these will also not in-<br />
fringe. It is irrelevant that these are commercial uses; they are still permitted under the exceptions.&#8221;.</p>
<p>In relation to a similar case in New Zealand (Radford v Hallensteins) the court there threw out a lawsuit by a sculptor against a maker of T-shirts which had an image of the sculpture. NZ and English law were discussed thoroughly (vol. 15, page 83);</p>
<p>   &#8220;&#8230; the High Court Judge held that s 73 applied and that there was no infringement. The Judge  considered both s 73 and the English provision s 62 and its antecedents, and commentary thereon.  He said that s 73:<br />
   &#8216;sets out to allow members of the public, including players in the market, to copy in two-dimensions sculptures permanently in the public domain and even for profit; and it does so by setting aside any copyright in the work that the author might otherwise enjoy&#8217;.<br />
   However s 73 [s 62 in the UK] is interpreted, that clear policy is not for compromise. The sculptor in that case was understandably aggrieved  &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>   The same academic review (on copyright law and the protection of public art and works on public display) mentioned that under both the UK and NZ legislation, which are very similar, it&#8217;s likely that working materials associated with the works (notes, sketches, designs) are also not protected. This raises the possibility that databases associated with the public domain works would likewise not be protected. </p>
<p>Webb also asserts that the &#8220;Bridgeman v. Corel case &#8230; doesn’t apply in the slightest in the UK&#8221;. </p>
<p>The Bridgman case applies at least as much as the silk&#8217;s opinion. There are layers of authority, some binding, some not. A UK court could disregard both. It might regard the US decision in &#8220;Bridgeman v. Corel&#8221; by Judge Kaplan as being of at least persuasive authority, particularly since he specifically discussed UK law. It is, at the least, a case decided in a recognized common-law jurisdiction, which the opinion of James QC is not.</p>
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		<title>By: z</title>
		<link>http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/07/16/protecting-the-public-domain-and-sharing-our-cultural-heritage/comment-page-2/#comment-1443</link>
		<dc:creator>z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 02:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.wikimedia.org/?p=984#comment-1443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hate to think how many digitization projects have been set back or sent back to the drawing board because of the thoughtless actions of Coetzee and Moeller. High quality digitization projects not only make images available to the public but preserve them for future generations. I am sure individuals in those institutions had to convince different boards that it is a good idea not only to raise that kind of money but to spend it. I&#039;m sure the chief concern would have been that these images would be stolen. Coetzee has proven them correct, now other digitization projects, not isolated to the art world, will have to work harder to convince people that it would be a good idea to put things online and available to the public. Moeller and Coetzee has set back potential projects bringing media to the public. They need to remember that without these institutions, these objects would be in the home of private owners, not available to the public.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to think how many digitization projects have been set back or sent back to the drawing board because of the thoughtless actions of Coetzee and Moeller. High quality digitization projects not only make images available to the public but preserve them for future generations. I am sure individuals in those institutions had to convince different boards that it is a good idea not only to raise that kind of money but to spend it. I&#8217;m sure the chief concern would have been that these images would be stolen. Coetzee has proven them correct, now other digitization projects, not isolated to the art world, will have to work harder to convince people that it would be a good idea to put things online and available to the public. Moeller and Coetzee has set back potential projects bringing media to the public. They need to remember that without these institutions, these objects would be in the home of private owners, not available to the public.</p>
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